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Second Part
 
3 GURUS, 48 QUESTIONS
MATCHING INTERVIEWS WITH SRI T.K.V. DESIKACHAR, SRI B.K.S. IYENGAR &
SRI K. PATTABHI JOIS
 
Page Location: http://www.namarupa.org/magazine/nr03/downloads/NamaRupa_03_02.pdf
 
Interviews by R. ALEXANDER MEDIN Edited by DEIRDRE SUMMERBELL
 
WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE YOGA SUTRA:
YOGA CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA?
 
Desikachar:
The understanding mind plays a part in many activities. When all these
are focused on one thing for a certain length of time, as I am
listening to you now, then you are in a state of yoga. Being attentive
is thus a form of yoga.
 
Pattabhi Jois:
Patanjali’s definition is simple:
 
“Yoga is the process of ending the definitions of the field of consciousness.”
 
But to actually understand this in one’s being is of a wholly
different order. To understand words and concepts is easy, but to let
the experience of yoga penetrate deep into one’s heart, to realize
fully what one is made of, and, finally, to establish the mind in the
Self—these are very difficult.
 
Manushyanam sahasreshu
kaschidyatati siddhaye
Yatatamapi siddhanaam kascinmam
vetti tattvatah
Bagavad Gita 7:3
 
[Among thousands of men, one perhaps struggles for perfection. Among
thousands of those that struggle, maybe one becomes perfect, but among
thousands of men that are perfect, perhaps one knows Me in reality.]
 
HOW DOES YOUR SYSTEM FACILITATE THE EXPERIENCE OF YOGA?
 
Desikachar:
That is up to the student, not to me.
 
Pattabhi Jois:
To practice asanas and pranayama is to learn to control the body and
the senses, so that the inner light can be experienced. That light is
the same for the whole world. And it is possible for people to
experience this light, their own Self, through correct yoga practice.
It is something that happens through practice, though learning to
control the mind is very difficult. Most important though is the
practice. We must practice, practice, practice for any real
understanding of yoga. Of course, philosophy is important, but if it
is not connected and grounded in truth and practical knowledge, then
what is it really for? Just endless talking, exhausting our minds! So,
practice is the foundation of the actual understanding of philosophy.
 
WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE YOGA SUTRA:
TADA DRASTUH SVARUPE AVASTHANAM?
 
Desikachar:
Read my book.
 
Iyengar:
Haven’t I told you this before? In asana, there is a centrifugal
movement of consciousness towards the frontiers of the body, whether
extended vertically, horizontally, or circumferentially, and a
centripetal movement as well, as the whole body is brought to a single
focus. If the attention is steadily maintained in this manner,
meditation takes place. Thus, in the advanced practice of asana, the
rhythmic flow of energy and awareness is experienced evenly and without
interruption, both centripetally and centrifugally, throughout the
channels of the body, and a pure state of joy will eventually be felt
in the cells and the mind. The body, mind, and soul are then one. This
is the manifestation of dharana and dhyana in the practice of asana.
Awareness that constitutes the very resting place of the soul is sent
everywhere throughout a posture. When all the muscles are properly
maintained, the atman is reflected in its natural state, without
pushing or frowning. So, you see, I just ride the tidal wave of
awareness, scale away the layers of opposition, and rest in the state
of equilibrium inside. When something is contorted, awareness can
become hard from too much effort, but until there is no distortion,
everything will remain the same. Yoga therefore becomes the skill of
resting with things in their equanimity and simply exploring what is
presented beyond the pair of opposites. Energy then flows without
interruption. Some people call it physical, others may call it
spiritual. I would say it is a homecoming.
 
Pattabhi Jois:
The atman [individual soul; inner Self ] is the same in all people,
but we give a name and form to It according to the nature of our mind
and sense organs. Taking yoga practice helps control the mind and
sense organs so that awareness eventually goes inside, toward this
atman. There are two types of yoga, external and internal. Yama,
niyama, asana, and pranayama are external. Pratyahara, dharana,
dhyana, and samadhi are internal. As you take practice, you come to
see God inside. The Katha Upanisad tells this:
 
Paranci khani vyatrnat svayambhuh
Tasmat paran pasyati nantaratman
Kasciddhirah Pratyagatmanam aiksat
Avrtacaksur amrtatvam icchan
Kathopanisad 4.1
 
[The self-existent Lord afflicted the senses so that they go outward.
Therefore, one sees outer things and not the inner Self. A
discriminating man, desiring immortality, turns his eyes away (from
sense objects) and then sees the indwelling Self.]
 
So, when the sense organs are controlled, you will come to see your
true Self, that is atman.
 
WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF ABHYASA AND VAIRAGYA?
 
Desikachar:
Abhyasa is the effort to persist with something over a long period of
time, diligently and wholeheartedly. Vairagya is dispassion for the
fruits of such effort. Both are equally important for a yoga
practitioner.
 
Iyengar:
They are two sides of the same coin. The head is abhyasa, the tail is
vairagya. They are eternally connected for the practitioner. Abhyasa
is a dedicated, unswerving, constant, and vigilant search of a given
subject, pursued against all odds and in the face of repeated
failures, for an indefinitely long period of time. Vairagya is the
cultivation of freedom from passion, the abstention from worldly
desires and appetites, and the discrimination between what is real and
what is not real. It is the act of giving up all sensuous delights.
Abhyasa builds confidence and refines the process of cultivating the
consciousness, while vairagya eliminates the things that hinder
progress and refinement. So, proficiency in vairagya develops the
ability to free oneself from the fruits of action. But a bird cannot
fly with one wing. So, we need the two wings of practice and
dispassionrenunciation to be able to soar up to the zenith of
Soul-realization.
 
IS GOD IMPORTANT TO A PHYSICAL PRACTICE? WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF
THE YOGA SUTRA ISHVARA PRANIDHANAD VA?
 
Desikachar:
A good teacher sees the commonality of all human beings and helps each
individual find his uniqueness. Since this is a light present in all
of us, we must honor humanity and let the love of human beings itself
be what guides us in the process. So, God is not necessarily Brahma or
Vishnu. He is a reference, like my father is my reference and Iyengar
is a reference and Pattabhi Jois is a reference too. You don’t know
how much difficulty they went through when they were young, how many
hardships they had to endure. They are thus models and references for
me. I have many gods, but the most important is Isvara [the
In-dweller]. Isvara is my model and, because It is, I have to exert
more effort and go further and further to align myself with It.
Whatever I need to do, I do. Whatever I cannot do, I avoid. That is
the meaning of Patanjali’s sutra.
 
Pattabhi Jois:
The reason we do yoga is to become one with God and to realize Him in
our hearts. You can lecture, you can talk about God, but when you
practice correctly, you come to experience God inside. Some people
start yoga and don’t even know of Him, don’t even want to know of Him.
But for anyone who practices yoga correctly, the love of God will
develop. And, after some time, a greater love for God will be theirs,
whether they want it or not. It is true and that is why yoga is real.
It develops inside you and helps you to realize the inner light of the
Self.
 
THE FUTURE OF YOGA HOW DO YOU VIEW THE FUTURE OF YOGA?
 
Desikachar:
I have total faith in the future of yoga.
 
Iyengar:
My friend, why do you worry about the future? Leave it to God. He is
eternal. If he wants it to survive, it will survive. Who am I to speak
of the future? What have I done? I have cultivated, I have built up, I
have presented and developed the subject of yoga. Now leave it to
eternity.
 
WHAT IS THE GOAL OF YOGA ACCORDING TO YOU?
 
Desikachar:
Peace, shanti: that is the goal of yoga.
 
Iyengar:
It is to become free of the actions that afflict you. When you get rid
of these and the body-mind-soul is cleansed, what is left? Yoga!
 
WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN LIFE TO YOU?
 
Desikachar:
Shanti.
 
Iyengar:
Initially, the practice of yoga, but now, increasingly, it is to
present the correct form of yoga to my students around the world. In
the beginning, I primarily did yoga to develop my intelligence and
evolutional strength. Now that I have the knowledge of that, I’m using
it in the best way I can. So, first, there was an involution, but now
I’m trying to improve the evolution. But I don’t teach for myself. I
share things with people. I have a very big heart and what my heart
says is, “Don’t keep it to yourself. Don’t let it die.” So, whatever I
have, I give to others. When I die, I will know that I didn’t keep any
secret in my heart, but let it out. And I am still practicing, so God
will probably give me a better life in the next life and I will start
from where I left off.
 
WHAT IS IT THAT HAS KEPT YOU DOING YOGA FOR ALL THESE YEARS?
 
Desikachar:
When I’m travelling, I must confess, yoga has become an addiction to
me—a good addiction. I feel sick if I don’t do my practice or
meditate. I think that what I am today is because of yoga. I see
colleagues from my university and they look so sick, they are so
bored, they have no life, no light. Here in India, when they retire,
people get bored with life. They get sick. So, how do you generate
health? I see my uncle—what an energy he has! And I see Pattabhi
Jois—what an energy and strength he has! And I see other people and
they can hardly walk. There is something about yoga. And it proves
that it awakens an energy in people, that it awakens something
beautiful which sustains and supports them from within, and which
reveals itself to human nature.
 
Iyengar:
The inner intelligence that is continually being revealed.
 
These interviews were originally conducted in the early months of 2004
in Mysore, Pune, and Madras, as part of a master’s thesis. The full
thesis runs to some 55,000 words, a generous portion of which is made
up of the interviews, which appear here in abridged and edited form.
For clarity’s sake, answers have been grouped together according to
questions asked, rather than to their order in the original talks.
Additionally, there are a few instances in the thesis when brief
quotes from books by the interviewees have been added to their answers
to help clarify ideas or to fill in indecipherable gaps on the
interview tapes. These have been retained and footnoted. Not all
interviewees, of course, answered each and every question, preferring
occasionally to pass a particular one over. Mr. Medin’s work is
currently being expanded into a book. FALL 2004
 
Sanjaya Yogi
 
Twitter:
http://twitter.com/sanjayayogi
 
Blog:
http://sanjayayogi.posterous.com/
 
Web:
http://www.ashtangayogabrasil.com
 
Om Shanti Shanti Shanti Om